Even though the event is done and won (GG Finland) I figured I should probably do a write up of this for future reference. I can also include some commentary of the matchups each player went through since there weren't many.
Usual disclaimer about results & matchups: the unique WTC pairing system and team structure means that it is difficult to draw broad conclusions from the data and results. However, I will do my best to provide blunt and non-comprehensive commentary for your entertainment.
Player 1
Player: Christoph Van Der Schoot Team: Belgium Brown Team Placing:45/50
Rask [Arcane Wonder]
Maelok [Bunker]
Maelok -6
Bull Snapper +3
Bull Snapper +3
Sacral Vault +9
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Thrullg +3
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Bog Trog Ambushers (min) +5
The Rask list seems like an all-rounder troop heavy type of list - some of everything except heavies, while the Maelok list seems to be a hard-skew against Cryx dudeswarm/ Body and Soul.
Matchups:
Round 1: Rask vs Lucant. Result: Loss
Round 2: Rask vs Vayl 2. Result: Win
Round 3: Rask vs Mordikar. Result: Win
Round 4: Rask vs Butcher2. Result: Loss
Round 5: Rask vs Lucant. Result: Loss
Round 6: Rask vs Bradigus. Result: Loss
As you can see, Maelok was not chosen ever, although it probably would have done better against Lucant or Butcher2 than the Rask list chosen, on account of attrition advantage and the Sacral Vault. On the surface you think Rask vs Lucant is a better matchup since Rask cracks ARM and Lucant is a lot of ARM. However, Lucant can deal with Croaks and Spitters ranged attacks, and the lack of living models means Posse don't get a very long charge, or rerolls. No melee heavies also means the Rask list doesn't deal out really high single target damage. Maelok's feat also allows you to take out the Enigma Foundries very quickly, which puts you in a big attrition lead. Butcher2 was a theme force, which means it would get stomped by the Sacral Vault. His opponents other list was Harkevich w/ Conquest and lots of Winterguard, which would also suffer somewhat against Maelok - you'll probably never kill the Conquest, but you can shred everything else.
Player 2
Player: Kevin "Kevina" Maeder Team: France Obelix Team Placing:17/50
Bloody Barnabas [Effigy of Valor]
Rask [Arcane Wonder]
Rask -6
Bull Snapper +3
Blackhide Wrastler +9
Swamp Horror +8
Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Shamblers +6
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Swamp Gobbers +1
Sacral Vault +9
Victor Pendrake +2
The highest placing team with a Minion player, and also with an awesome team name that hits me right in the childhood. I really like the Barnabas list. I think it matches up very well against low to mid ARM lists, commonly found in Legion/Circle/Cryx thanks to some serious ranged firepower, but lacks any serious ARM cracking. That's where the Rask godzilla list comes in, which is pretty much what I would run with the exception of WE + Snapjaw over the Sacral Vault.
Matchups:
Round 1: Barnabas vs Absylonia2. Result: Win.
Round 2: Rask vs Doomshaper2. Result: Win
Round 3: Rask vs Butcher3. Result: Loss
Round 4: Rask vs Kreoss2. Result: Loss
Round 5: Rask vs Rahn. Result: Win
Round 6: Rask vs Haley1. Result: Win.
I think Kevina's two losses were both against pretty bad matchups - Butcher3 in my opinion is one of the hardest matchups for Gators at this time, and Kreoss2 theme force has a lot of tanky weapon masters. It's arguable the Barnabas list might have had better luck against Kreoss2, however the presence of Exemplar Gravus to negate Black Tide makes the matchup a little more complicated. Haley1 is also a pretty bad matchup for Rask, so a win there is sweet. Well done!
Player 3
Player: Rob Kneekens (WTC results list "Jun Chan" as the player on the day however) Team: Netherlands Hero Team Placing: 31/50
Bloody Barnabus [Effigy of Valor]
Rask [Arcane Wonder]
Rask -6
Blackhide Wrastler +9
Bull Snapper +3
Ironback Spitter +8
Wrong Eye & Snapjaw +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Another nice Barnabas list, which a slight anti-Cryx skew. And the second manliest Rask list around (switch out the Spitter for a Horror to go full man).
Matchups:
Round 1: Rask vs Bradigus. Result: Win
Round 2: Rask vs Bradigus. Result: Loss.
Round 3: Rask vs Xerxis1. Result: Win.
Round 4: Rask vs Syntherion. Result: Loss.
Round 5: Barnabas vs Butcher3. Result: Loss.
Round 6: Rask vs Xerxis1: Result: Win.
Looks like this Minion player was thrown to the wolves a lot, with no good matchups for either list, but managed to pull out 3 wins despite this. Good show!
Player 4
Player: Adam Fox Team: Northern Ireland Team Placing: 48/50
Rask [Arcane Wonder]
Bloody Barnabus [Bunker]
Bloody Barnabas -6
Ironback Spitter +8
Ironback Spitter +8
Ironback Spitter +8
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Gatorman Posse (max) +9
Croak Raiders +8
Gatorman Witch Doctor +3
Totem Hunter +3
These lists seem.... lacking. Like they both want to do something but don't go all the way. The Sacral Vault in the Rask list doesn't gel well in my experience, and Triple Spitter is pretty "all in noobstomping ranged assassination!" but lacks the rest of the skew to make it happen (ie. 3rd Posse, 2nd Croaks, Vault...) I dunno. Maybe there's some magic somewhere.
Matchups:
Round 1: Barnabas vs Rahn. Result: Loss.
Round 2: Rask vs Severius2. Result: Loss.
Round 3: Rask vs Harbinger. Result: Loss.
Round 4: Barnabas vs Irusk2. Result: Loss.
Round 5: Barnabas vs Butcher2. Result: Loss.
Round 6: Barnabas vs Skarre1. Result: Loss.
Tough luck :(
Useless Musings!
- 4
out of 250 something players played Minions. That is very few, and
definitely not enough to offer commentary of any value, other than
Minions are really not popular. What would the Minion numbers look like
if Rask had never been released? One wonders. Also the team with Minion players did not place especially well, with the exception of France Obelix which placed respectably. This would indicate that the teams didn't put in as much preparation as the rest of the field, which in turn implies that Minions are not an optimal choice in the WTC team selection format. This could be because they don't have any matchups they really dominate (with the exception of Ret) and have big weaknesses against a few of the power lists. Thus teams would probably default to another faction that has more depth and strategic versatility given the choice, depending on how seriously you take the event. It's also worth nothing that both Mercs and Convergence had 4 players each - Convergence in my opinion is quite strong but unpopular due to the limited releases, but I am really surprised there are so few Merc players. I guess the Earthbreaker/Galleon hype is dying down as ARM has become more popular and teched against.
- No Pig lists anywhere. Not too surprising - read everything I've ever written on Pigs on the blog to find out more. - Rask was played a lot. The only other drop was Barnabas. Although Maelok was in a pairing, he was also never dropped. Does this mean anything? Probably not. We can conclude that Rask is very popular.... and very good. His dominance over his faction is comparable to Haley2 in Cygnar, B3 in Khador, Harbinger in PoM, and theme forces in Trolls :) This brings up interesting questions about internal balance. - Interestingly, there were no Minion vs Cryx matches played before the last round, on the lowest tables. That's a little ridiculous when you consider that a) Cryx was the most numerous faction by a sizable amount (include a few all-Cryx teams), and b) the presence of a few anti-Cryx lists in the above pairings. I don't know whether this was intentional, or a result of opposite players choosing not to put their Cryx players into Gators (which seems crazy). Freed from the need to produce a strict anti-Cryx list, I feel that we should have seen a bit more caster diversity - perhaps even a Carver or Nature of the Beast list.
- My conclusions would therefore be that a) Rask is way above the rest of the faction and b) Pigs are not respected at all. Both things that were already quite well established.
Finally, something actually Gatorman related to write about...
From War Room Beta spoilers: SPD: 4 MAT:0 RAT: 5 DEF: 9 ARM: 20 CMD: 10 20 health boxes / 9pts
Gunfighter, Eyeless Sight
Ranged Weapon: Spectral Fury Range: 12, RoF 1, Pow 13 Magical Weapon Rapid Fire[d3] Deathly Dominion: Costs 1 soul for the Bone Shaker effect on each ranged attack.
Abilities: Crypt of Souls: Gain 1 soul for each living model that is destroyed in
its command area. If no souls are on it at the beginning of your Control
Phase it gains d3 souls. Souls can be spent to boost attack and damage
rolls. (Supposedly 5 souls max)
Arcane Vortex: Spend a soul to negate a spell targeting the Vault or a model within 3'' of it. Soul Sacrifice: Warlock can remove a soul to gain 1 fury point...[then the image cuts off]. Soulstorm: While this model has 1 or more soul tokens enemy models
entering, or ending their activation within 2'' of the Vault take 1
damage.
It's a huge base with a good boostable gun Huge bases are not usually good without guns, for logistical reasons. Boostable guns are very good, because they kill many things from far away. RNG 12 POW 13 is a pretty good weapon for sniping out things
That boostable gun is magicaland has Eyeless Sight This allows it to kill incorporeal models and shoot Menoth jacks. This is very nice. Blackbane's will still be a pain in the ass, but now you can just snipe-out Blackbane himself and then stand in front of the rest of them with Soul Storm and be a douche. AND IT ALLOWS YOU TO KILL TARTARUS AND GORMAN AND THE BLOOD HAG AND DENNY AT RANGE WITHOUT SACRIFICING YOUR WRASTLER OR SPENDING 3 FURY ON FLESH EATER ONLY TO FIND OUT THE HAG HAS STEALTH. FU CRYX DIAF Aaaaarghhhhhhhh...... *ahem*.
Soulstorm This ability is AMAZING. Probably the best rule on this thing, besides Eyeless Sight. Especially on a huge base, that is a huge FU bubble to small based melee infantry (lol Cryx), and at ARM 20 it doesn't really care about small-based ranged infantry either. Especially since you can probably put it in a Swamp Pit (assuming amphibious) or Spiny Growth it or whatever.
Always has some souls, and gains them within a large radius Very nice - PP seems to have realized that the Skorne BE is a total piece of crap mostly because it doesn't start with any tokens and will die by the time it gets any. The free d3 also helps slightly vs Cryx, which has less living models, and when you want to Zombify all the things for Maelok's feat.
Gives fury to warlocks This is neat for the Maelok Posse spam list, since if for whatever reason one of your Snappers gets killed, you have a little backup plan. Or just in general, free fury when you need it can be better than cutting for a point (like when you are at one box of life left).
Very large anti-magic bubble Again, the huge base is put to work with Arcane Vortex. The thing I like about this ability is that it is preventive as much as it is reactive - if your opponent knows you have it (and you should probably remind him at the right time), then it just messes with his plans.
d3 shots at RAT 5 RAT 5 isn't that big a deal since at RNG 12 and a desire to get souls, it will probably be quite far up and thus able to sacrifice its movement for the aiming bonus when it actually wants to shoot stuff. Plus it can boost. 1d3 shots however is a bit of a dick punch and a little too random for my taste. d3+1 would have been quite a bit more reliable for a gun platform. Therefore, what this indicates to me is that the Sacral Vault's primary purpose is not really to be shooting stuff, but to be a huge Soul Storm / Arcane Vortex construct and pseudo-fury battery. The gun is to be thought of as a single shot you get to do for free every turn to snipe out an important thing or two, and a way to spend "uneeded souls" if you happen to get extra shots (via the Bone Shaker effect). Keep those souls for the Soul Storm, and situationally the Arcane Vortex, unless you are going all in sniping out that Gorman or Tartarus.
Does nothing to help vs ARM for non-Rask casters, or buff beasts One can dream, right? Maybe we'll get a beast that can actually deal damage later on. Or the new caster can mix-up our list pairings a bit.
Huge base, gets shot and killed. Oh wait, I forgot I play Gatormans, and don't usually get shot. Very nice. ARM 20 is also pretty sweet. Just don't let heavies get to it.
The Other Stuff
If these are correct, which seems likely barring the fine details, then it's a very nice but not fundamentally game changing piece for us Gatormans - just game changing at the non-Rask level. I like it a hell of a lot more than Shamblers anyway, with which it can combo pretty effectively (double dipping on souls/corpse tokens for every living model death).
It helps the Cryx matchup a lot in providing a large anti-magic bubble and a magical gun, as well as stealing their souls and screws over small-based infantry with Soul Storm. I think it'll do some really great things with Barnabas and pushes him up quite a bit as a Cryx matchup, even perhaps taking the place of one Posse unit. Plus, another boostable gun always helps in that old-school KD assassination.
I've always had a slight preference for Barnabas over Maelok as my second list (I like rough terrain creation and I hate getting shot) and this model would certainly push me further towards our patron future god in a two list format. Not to say that Maelok doesn't get a lot from it as well.
I think my Rask lists will remain mostly unchanged, since the tankier factions I bring Rask against (and Ret, because they just can't handle the Jewfish) won't care as much about the Soul Storm or the Arcane Vortex. Unless of course one brings a shooty Rask list with 2 Posse, 3 Spitters and a Sacral Vault. That might be pretty legit.
Summary - would likely buy this model when it comes out in 5 to 11 months. Would be mildly disappointed if the spoilers weren't legit.
I have a relatively huge 42pt tournament coming up in a couple of weeks. I say relatively huge because this is probably the biggest Warmachine tournament in the NZ calendar, and it happens to be local. Yay!
This tournament is run by Soulless Dave, who enjoys the following things:
1 - Running sweet tournaments, which he can't play in otherwise he'd probably win those too.
2 - Giving me beer mugs.
3 - Shamelessly relishing how OP Cryx is.
Quite the gentleman.
Anyway, I have been told that Gator list building is faceroll and requires no decision making at all, and that playing Gators for so long has erased my ability to write "good" or "sound" lists for other factions. In light of these comments, I thought I would write a post about my list writing process for this 42pt nightmare.
First, I must admit that writing lists are the part of the hobby/game I enjoy the least. This could do with the fact that Gators have way less options than everyone else, or it could be related to how writing lists for my previous factions (Khador, PoM, Skorne) used to remind me that I would have a much better chance of winning games if I just bought X unit or Y solo for this specific list, or it could be related to how I would rather the game be as well balanced as people claim and lists had very little impact on the outcome of a game rather than a sizable one. But then I accept that a lot of people really enjoy the meta-game, and I too see the appeal in it, I just don't really experience the enjoyment of it too often.
Secondly, 42pts is a kick in the nuts, especially when you play Minions. Unlike most of the fleshed out big boy factions, it is very, very difficult to build 2 lists that answer enough matchups sufficiently. 3 lists might be alright, but two is very tight. In Minions, this is primarily a result of our casters being so dominant and being the primary "solutions" to problems we face. Factions like Legion, PoM or Cryx don't really have trouble making 2 lists that can more or less deal with more or less everything, simply through having a wide range of beasts, units, support and niche-filling mercs. That's not a luxury Minions have.
The higher the points, the more balanced the game is. That's been my experience in the past year anyway. I really think the meta would benefit on the whole from a push up to 60/65 pts, but that's another post altogether.
The Proto-Lists
These are the lists I started with, and I would have to choose 2 of these:
List 1: Rask
Spitter
Snapper
5 Gatormans 5 Gatormans 5 Gatormans Min. Trogs Gobbers
4pts for "support"
3 Posse version. I take a Spitter in this list because the entirety of the damage potential of the list comes from cycling Fury on Gatormans and shooting off defensive upkeeps. High skill plays right there, woo! Anyway, having a Spitter is nice to clear jams and soften up targets at range. I guess he can also do stuff in melee with Paralysis and Fury and Boundless Charge and all that. Maybe.
The min. Trog unit and Gobbers more or less make Rask invincible, which either will result in my opponent wasting attacks on Rask, or ignoring Rask and his fish friends entirely so they are free to wreck havoc as they please. Either way, points usually well spent.
So the two questions with this list are '2 Posse, or 3 Posse?' and 'What to do with those 4pts?'
List 2: Barnabas
Wraster
Spitter Snapper
5 Gatormans 5 Gatormans 5 Gatormans
Feralgeist
I would really, really like to throw in some solos like Croak Hunters, a Thrullg or Totem Hunter in there to give the list some flexibility, but 42pts! I think the beast composition is pretty fixed - without any Croaks, you really need a Spitter for some ranged presence, and Bull Snappers are too good to pass up between their sweet man-eating abilities and Spiny Growth on Barnabas.
The Wrastler could be changed for a Horror, however. More on that later.
Max Posse, the two Croctors I own, and 2 Bull Snappers to use up those beast points. This is pretty much the Maelok list I used at Battlecry this month (minus Pendrake), and does what you want Maelok lists to do - get a big unpredictable feat turn, then tank up and grind your way to victory.
The only real question is what to do about those last 9pts?
THEORYMACHINE TIME!
Some things are a given:
I have to play Rask to break ARM, and doubly so post-Colossals. Also he's like one of the best warlocks in the entire game, so there's that going for him too.
I have to bring at least 2 units of Gatormans per list, because 2 Posse is better than every other alternative in almost every situation. 3 Posse, in my opinion, is not a certainty however.
The tournament is mid-March and has a fully-painted requirement, so I am unlikely to have Shamblers ready by then.
Because the field is so big, every faction is likely to be represented in some capacity. Except Pigs, since the only guy I know who plays Pigs told me he'd be playing Gators because his Gators are fully-painted (but really, he's just sick of Pigs).
Factions I don't really have to worry about in general:
Skorne - any Rask list does great to decent here. There are of course builds that will hurt like Xerxis Cetrati brick or Zaal attrition, but in general it is not something I can really list tech against heavily.
Retribution - Similar to Skorne. I think Rahn and eVyros Griffon spam can be a real worry, but not something I really have to tech for. As long as it's Rask, and perhaps Barnabas, we're alright. Gators shred infantry, and Fury kills heavies.
Protectorate - similar to Skorne but more annoying. The Errant/Piper/Book combo is also cryx-level, jigglypuff-in-a-vaccuum-cleaner type of retarded, but since I have no anti-tough, I cannot do a single thing about it or the Gorman hiding behind them chaining Black Oils onto my stuff. They also usually have lots of magic weapons to skrew Maelok's feat.
Circle - Most Circle stuff is squishy and dies to Gators. Gator casters are also real tough to assassinate so they lose that gameplan.
Legion - a fair matchup for Gatormans, so it mostly comes down to how I play. Usually Legion has trouble dealing with so much ARM and anti-shooting. Note the comment on Vayl below however.
Cygnar - Cygnar does Cygnar things. I have pretty good anti-shooting tech (which Siege ignores), but otherwise there's not much to specifically worry about. Rask is pretty good most of the time here.
Trolls - For the most part, Trolls are like Gators except with crappier troops but way better lists, if you catch my drift. They can bring some problematic lists like Runes of War and eDoomshaper heavy spam. But I think it more or less comes down to two things: good play, and the troll player rolling 5s when he needs them.
Mercs - Infantry dies, bad jacks are bad. The Merc Colossal skew can be a problem though, but overall the faction isn't really problematic.
Factions I have to worry about in general:
Cryx - my arch nemesis. Infantry that destroys mine for half the cost + all undead and all that. Stupid. Does it with pretty much any caster.
Khador - these guys are tough in a multi-list environment because they will always hit really hard in any list, but the possibility of IF Kayazy is quite a list-chicken problem for Gators (to Barnabas or not?). I don't think I have problems with specific casters as much as their general options and the many, many mercs they are sure to bring. It's like Cygnar, except it actually hurts.
Casters/builds I have to worry about specifically:
eMorvahna - Maelok does so much better than Barnabas here on account of his feat and assassination potential. Barnabas does ok, but he does better than Maelok vs most other Circle stuff.
Harbinger - Awe is public enemy number 1. MAT 5 is terrible. Of course I can make the Gators undead, but then I have to use 3pts down on a Croctor or two in the Rask list, and at 42pts that's a big support investment for only one caster. The alternative is to drop Maelok and hope like hell the second list isn't some jack spam list (which is a tall order). The feat is nasty as well but usually I can get in the zone after that and stay there till the end. She also brings the Errant tarpit up to mega-powered Ben Stiller fully retarded.
Vayl - Incite, her feat, Dark Sentinel and Rampager can be really problematic for my lists. She is also a pretty popular caster around here. I do not like her, Sam I am. And there's not too much I can do about it. Barnabas is probably the best bet due to Pits + Iron Flesh + feat.
Terminus - if I don't have a Thrullg, I probably lose. Sweet. People like Terminus as well so he's very likely to be pretty well represented in the field. Because hard skewing is fun for everyone.... said the guy playing 3 Posses.
Bart/Galleon - this is a tough cookie. Theoretically, if I can shoot off Spiny Growth and cycle Fury, I can probably 1-round the Galleon. However every single other thing in the Galleon list is made to stop that happening and I get grinded out as Galleon gets repaired up every turn. So I probably drop Maelok or Barnabas, ignore Galleon and go for everything else, and hope it's a 2 zone scenario? I guess Rhulic casters with the Pooper Scooper also fits in here, but again, there is a near total lack of quality experience against quality lists on my part.
Haley/Denny/hard control casters - The great thing about this is I can worry all I want, but can't really do jack about it. So I suck it up, hope the feat turn goes ok for my opponent while he timewalks over my play time, and we move on if I have anything left.
Decision 1 – Barnabas or Maelok?
The Barnabas list is a pretty good all around list. It does "ok vs
Cryx" due to many Posse, his feat + Spitter. It does pretty well against Circle
and Legion, even without Pendrake. I am also quite a bit better at playing him than I am at playing Maelok, which counts for something.
Maelok is much better vs Cryx, ok vs Circle (great against eMorvahna), ok vs Legion (mostly because I am not so good at playing him) and also has some game vs jammy infantry Zaal Skorne and most Trolls (even with the anti-incorp aura - if the Troll player is using it, then he's not using +1 STR and you live longer to grind).
Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Both feel a little gimped by 42pts rather than 50pts, Barnabas probably a little less. There is no real alternative (Calaban is a bad dream and Pigs are Pigs) outside these two for a second list. So I guess it just comes down to how I feel on decision day.
Decision 2 – Rask with 2 Posse, or 3 Posse?
The 2 Posse alternative involves dropping one Posse for WE+ Snapjaw (since he is probably the best combat heavy we have and does bad ass things with ALL THE BUFFS), and the Spitter for a Swamp Horror, since the Horror brings Elasticity for the two big Crocs and does some really good damage with Rask.
For the way I play, 3 Posse is better against Trolls while 2 Posse is better vs PoM and Skorne. This is from 50pt experience, where I will usually have Horror+Wrastler+Snapjaw in the Rask list and can blow stuff up with only a tiny charge lane by spreading the triple-heavy threat and then stacking buffs on the chosen heavy when the opportunity presents itself.
However at 42pts, you have a bit more space on the table and the 3 Posse skew can be really problematic for your opponent (a.k.a. skewy as balls). On the flipside, taking 3 Posse is also a hell of a lot less interesting for me tactically since it basically removes Boundless Charge from Rask's spell list and power attacks from mine. I do love me some power attacks... damn you Colossals. Damn your stupidity.
Thus it comes down to what I can expect to play against, and whether I will hate myself for only taking 2 Posse when I get dropped against Trolls 3 rounds in a row.
For Barnabas and Maelok, I play 3 full Posses by default. If Gator beasts hit harder/more accurately than a full unit of Gators, this probably wouldn't be the case, since both can do pretty good things for Gator beasts - not as much as Rask of course, but a lot nevertheless. But as things stand, I have found that playing three Posse with these two is much preferable to taking two (I played two Posse with them for almost a year before getting a third).
Decision 3 – Rask solos
In any case, I have 4pts left over in the Rask list (5pts if you discount the Gobbers). These are going to be used for solos.... a sort of "support" allocation, one might say.
I've given myself 3 options here:
Two Croak Hunters - these guys are mediocre as hell, but when they are one of your only ranged attacks, you learn to value their input. They can hold zones about as well as the other two options, they can unblock Gators, they are two independent activations and are really sweet at countercharging.
Totem Hunter + Feralgeist - the Totem Hunter is a lot like a Croak Hunter on steroids but without a gun. His stats and mobility are almost better than a Croak in every way, but he relies entirely on proccing Sprint to unblock Gators. This has led to bad things in my life. But he can also sometimes break games open if used patiently, and does work at all stages of the game. Finally, he is also a character so putting him in this list means he isn't in my other lists, and I do love him vs Circle to snipe out Shifting Stones. Feralgeists are 1pt zone holders/contesters 99% of the time, and sometimes take over beasts to annoy people (primarily me).
Croctor + Feralgeist - This would almost be purely for the Harbinger matchup alone, because the stuff I drop Rask against doesn't usually care about Undead and Tough on Gators is mostly a non-issue.
Decision 4 - Barnabas asks "Wrastler or Horror"?
Another tricky question revolving entirely around one beast selection:
On one side, the Wrastler is SPD 5, reasonably tanky (especially with Spiny Growth), and is P+S 17. He can do respectable, although not great damage. He also keeps the 'Rise Missile' threat alive, which is the one thing people seem to know about Gators. Being able to independently knock heavy targets down following a charge is also pretty neat. His weaknesses are lack of reach and an extra point cost relative to the Horror.
On the other, the Swamp Horrorhas really good protection vs shooting, can do work against infantry, has built-in reach, can give reach to other things (mainly Barnabas or some random Gatorman), benefits a LOT from Warpath since it is slow, and also costs 1 less point than a Wrastler, allowing me to level the Feralgeist up to a Croak Hunter for that extra ranged attack. Its weaknesses are being squishy as balls in melee, and being 1 less POW and 2 less STR than a Wrastler.
Decision 5 - Maelok's last 9 pts.
Unfortunately Posse are (only) FA:3 in Blindwater. Sad face. That means I have to take other things.
WE + Snapjaw - Usually in a Maelok list, you want to have Wrong Eye around to put up another 2 Spiny Growths a turn. And you also get a sweet heavy to go with it. However, at 42pts, that's not really a luxury we have. But you still get a pretty good heavy and solo with solid animi.
Support solo staff: TH + Thrullg + Pendrake + Feralgeist -This gives a little more flexibility to the list. Thrullgs are good against Cryx, the Totem Hunter can also be super scary with incorporeal charges followed by a Sprint away and 15 Gators in your grill, Pendrake makes Gators much better vs beasts (so they can Dirge or Pathfinder on the charge if needed), and the Feralgeist gives you specific zone control potential. But, you don't have a heavy hitter outside Malediction (which you really don't want to be using as a core ARM crack strategy).
So there you have it - how faceroll easy it is to chose Gator lists, why I don't have to worry about list chicken because all my lists are the same and why I am so bad at making lists for other factions.
What did lists did I go for in the end? Stay tuned for exciting revelations in March (after lists have been submitted to TO)!!
This is my modest contribution to this thread on the PP boards regarding the Minion matchups for Cryx. Arlaharen and the rest of the Gator folk have already written a good deal of useful tips and tactics in dealing with Cryx (with more hopefully coming), and I thought I should add my own since I like to think about stuff and readers might benefit from my perspective.
In general, I think a well-played Cryx list is still one of the worst matchups for Gators due to mass undead, increasing amounts of tough BS, cheap infantry that hit like sledgehammers and lots of movement debuffs and control.
Importance of melee positioning and "staggering"
Cryx is the best melee faction in the game, all things considered. There is a reason people ALWAYS have Cryx in mind when preparing
tournament lists, because if they don't, they will probably lose to
Cryx and their "infantry-that-kills-anything spam" skew.
Cryx generally sucks balls at the ranged game (with exceptions like pDenny pirate gunline lists that prove both the rule and that pDenny is the ultimate turd polisher), and their spell assassination is nowhere as good as it used to be in Mk1 (despite being decent, it's not really a core game plan amongst most of their casters anymore). To make up for this, in a straight out melee scrap, Cryx will generally have the upper hand. They will hit more often, harder and for cheaper than other factions for less points and keep doing it until you are dead. How fluffy.
This is why they get hosed by Cygnar, Retribution and PoM, who can play a very good ranged game and can blow them up before Cryx makes it across the field to fight on their terms. It's also why Gators, as a largely melee subfaction, don't do great vs Cryx in principle since you have to beat the masters at their own game, so to speak. Therefore, it is very important if you want to come out victorious against Cryx to at least have good positioning when it comes to melee engagement, whether you are getting the alpha strike or receiving it. Good staggered positioning leads to good piece-trades, which is one of the fundamental concepts of Warmachine.
Let me elaborate on this slightly: Have you ever had a single Doom Reaver run up in front of your bunched-up, flanking Gatorman unit, at max CMD range from his unit leader, and not have any solos or ranged attacks nearby to deal with it? As a result, that Gator unit's entire activation is spent dealing with this one Reaver. They can't really run past him to kill his comrades as they will take free strikes, they can't move away as they will take free strikes. You can probably block some free strikes using 2 Gators to block LoS, but even then you are not in a good spot. That unit will probably in turn get charged by 5 other Doom Reavers, and the Khador player has now traded 1 Doom Reaver for 5 Gatormans. Good trade, wouldn't you say?
Often a good player will put a couple of models a few inches in front of the rest of his unit just to add as an ablative wall to absorb charges, trading those few models for what you charge in there. You can't really get to the back models either, because as a largely melee faction, you might not have the ranged attacks to deal with the 3 guys in front to clear a charge, or reach the guys in the back at all. Whatever is put up front will be traded for whatever you wish to kill it with. This is what I mean by the "staggering" of melee positions. It's like the "waves" of an army, where you have the anvil (tough or expendable units) go in front, followed by the hammer to clean up (hard-hitters who are usually squishier). Except it's all one unit, and all placement skill.
Well, good Cryx players will be really good at the staggering game since that is one of their core tactics. Oh, and Cryx have Ghostly, Curse of Shadows and Ghost Walk, so can cheat the stagger game better than most, making them even better than you in a melee scrap. They can also do stuff like turn your living dudes into their dead dudes and go through your dudes to get at the backfield stuff. Ain't life grand? Fortunately Gators have some such cheating of their own.
It's difficult to write a descriptive tactica about staggering and piece-trading. They are skills and perceptive abilities you will develop as you play the game and a pattern you will see repeated over many games. The best way to actively develop this is whenever you move a model, try to think one or two turns ahead - if I move this Gator forward, what will threaten him, and what do I have to threaten things who threaten/kill him? And so on, and so on. It's like a dance... OF DEATH.
Importance of attrition + Dealing with Cryx feat turns (armor)
Cryx is also really good at attrition. They can bring their guys back to "life" with things like Necrosurgeons, Death Toll, Goreshade2's Elite Cadre for Banes, etc. They are mostly fearless (except Satyxis!) and have quite a bit of tough. Their crappy 1/2 point models can destroy your 2 pt models on expected dice values with the standard Cryx buffs/debuffs. If you let the fight go on long enough, they will eventually outlast you simply by virtue of having more attacks than you, turn after turn.
They also tend to have OP feats that destroy your will to live along with your army. This can range from really powerful debuffs and denial (ie. Deneghras, Coven, Skarre2) to big burst damage/activity potential (ie. Skarre1, Lich1+2, Scaverous, Mortenebra). Either way, you're going to have a pretty shitty turn. A lot of the time this is no different than the average Warmahordes game and you just grind through and move on. But when it comes to a feat like Denny2's or Lich2's that are really strong against the melee oriented, elite infantry style of Gatormans, then you better have a plan for it or you're going to lose the game right then.
The average 50pt Cryx list. Notice the small number of warjacks
and many small-based models. Source.
Rask is a baller. If his testicles weren't internal, he could use them as a seat. He is a little OP, but still has his non-favourable matchups. The typical Cryx list is one of these.
He has little attrition potential. He can protect himself pretty damn well, and has Admonition for a warbeast, but outside his feat he doesn't do all that much to make his guys harder to kill or stand their ground. Gators are naturally good at attrition, but Cryx are better and Rask doesn't give us the attrition edge we need to hang in the fight.
Fury is usually not needed to kill Cryx ARM. POW 13 charges are enough to handle even Mortenebra ARM lists - only Deathjack and Krakens might prove to be an issue (and not a crippling one).
Inhospitable Ground is not as ballbusting against the pathfinder/ghostly stuff you see in Cryx lists as it is against a lot of other hard-hitting melee units.
Shooting upkeeps off your own stuff is kinda cool though.
Calaban is practically a Cryx caster, except way shittier.
He can potentially shred infantry with his feat BUT that relies on him using Bone Shakers on Cryx models. As you may know, Cryx models generally have crappy stats and aren't so sweet at killing each other without any of their mental buffs. You would probably get more out of the feat putting Spiny Growths on everything.
His spells don't really do anything. Carnivore works only against living so does blah (and living DEF in Cryx is not really high enough to worry about for a Gatorman). Parasite does blah since ARM is not a problem. Occultation does blah since they don't have guns, although it could theoretically protect you from an offensive debuff (if only Cryx didn't have cheap SPD 7 arc nodes). The meat node ability on his gun is not only crap, it doesn't even trigger on Undead stuff (thus is very blah).
His attrition potential is possibly even worse than Rask's, outside his ability to put Spiny Growth on all the things as a result of his feat.
Barnabas is a respectable Cryx matchup. He can attrition reasonably well with Iron Flesh and his feat, Warpath allows you to get beasts into good positions, and he himself is a tough croc able to put some work in. Swamp Pits can also make ye olde Deathjack crap itself.
His feat helps in slowing down infantry as well as knocking down those Satyxis and DEF 13 warjacks. It's also nice to make all Gator melee attacks pretty much auto-kill since you can't reroll to hit vs Undead and 5s are not as certain as they appear.
Iron Flesh Posse can be problematic for many Cryx lists to deal with, at 16/18. Just pray the Withershadow and their lol-tastic dispel bot isn't around.
Swamp Pits as noted helps take care of Deathjacks, and sometimes block up a certain part of the board to force Cryx players to spend the Skarlock's activation casting Ghost Walk (woe unto the Cryx player).
However, he lacks the recursion powers or the ability to gain the upper hand in the melee staggering piece-trade game that Maelok does (unless you take a lots of Spitters and Croak Hunters, which is not advisable for almost any other matchup for Barnabas since it lacks any kind of punch).
Maelok is a mighty warlock made of rotting flesh and other evil things. He is so evil, he kills baby crocodiles just because some dude said he couldn't do it. Sure showed him. Maelok is the best matchup we have against Cryx and is as close to a fair one as we get if one builds the list correctly.
His list usually comprises of almost all Undead models, thanks to Death Pact and Witch Doctors (which you take for the strong synergy with his feat and his grindy playstyle). This shuts down a lot of Cryx's abilities and makes Cryx players bitch about Undead being OP.
He has great recursion potential with Revive. Each Revive is an almost guaranteed 2 dead Cryx models, and an ARM 18 reach model in their face. Bringing 1-2 back a turn adds up FAST as the model count on the table gets lower and lower.
He has 3 magical melee attacks! That's kinda cool. I guess. And a spray... at Focus 6. It's not that sweet but it can be cute for taking out incorporeal things that hide behind walls and contest zones.
His feat allows you to cheat the staggering stage hard. So hard that it makes Cryx players jealous. It means that for 1 turn, all the Gatormans get all their attacks and you get in their backfield and cause problems. Not only that, but all Undead models get +2 ARM for that round, making them even harder to dislodge. Throw in a few Spiny Growths and Death Pact, and you've got one of the few lists in the game that can absorb a Cryx feat turn without falling on its knees and cursing the gods and heavens for forsaking it.
Bow before his rotting majesty!
Other cool stuff
Thrullgs are reasonably sweet because without guns on the other side, they have a good chance of living long enough to do something cool. They have 3xMAT 7 magical melee attacks (only one with Reach despite having 2 long ass arms), cannot be targeted by spells and cause damage to spell casters in their CMD (sweeter vs Circle Druids or Hex Hunters than against Cryx usually, but you never know). He can also hit upkeeps off your dudes, in the rare event that your Gator unit with Curse of Shadows or Crippling Grasp lives longer than a turn. As such, he is best kept back and protected and used as required rather than charging wherever he can. Most importantly, he is your ace in the hole vs Terminus because he can
strip off Terminus' focus and make him mortal. Well, killable. Again. A
smart Terminus player will know this and may be willing to overextend a
bit in order to kill the Thrullg, giving you a bit more table
positioning. A foolish Terminus player will run in front of him camping
focus, proclaim his status as an immortal god and then probably die.
Croak Hunters are one of the few ranged attacks you have available. They are great for sniping out lone models blocking charge lanes or contesting zones and such. Remember they also have gang fighter, so even without poison can do good damage on the charge.
Ironback Spitters tend to do pretty well vs Cryx in my opinion. Having a good, reliable boostable gun with auto-Corrosion can do some sweet stuff. They suck in melee and will get shredded by charging infantry but that gun will allow it to make its point back in opening doors for the rest of your list.
I also quite like the Totem Hunter vs Cryx. He can get hosed by tough, but his very high mobility makes him like a quasi-ranged attack and he can scare a lot of Cryx casters in the mid to late game. He also makes a pretty good trade for Tartarus, or at least force the Cryx player to keep him back.
Witch Doctors - they make your stuff Undead. Undead is sweet against Gators, but super sweet against Cryx. They also give you the opportunity to fail tough rolls, which you should absolutely not rely on. Tough on a 5man unit is nowhere near as nutstomping as it is on 3x10man units. They also have Dominate Undead which in a blue moon can do cool stuff like turn models around or have Banes kill Tartarus or whatever, but it is generally not as good as making things Undead since it requires a succession of dice rolls to do anything cool. Sacrificial Strike, on the other hand, can do some serious work late game when you want to put the last few points on an enemy caster, clear a charge lane, or snipe out that annoying Machine Wraith that's been contesting a zone all game.
In conclusion: Maelok > Barnabas > Rask > Calaban @ 50pts and above. I think at 35pts Barnabas is probably just as good as Maelok since he doesn't need quite the same 'critical mass' to do his thing well.
Other stuff to watch out for
Bane
Knights have Vengeance AND ignore rough terrain and free strikes.
Vengeance weapon masters will do some serious, serious damage to Posse
units. This means that you must absolutely kill as many as possible in one turn as you can. Try to line this slaughter up with your feat turn.
Bane Thralls hit ridiculously hard, and pretty accurately when you factor in Tartarus and all that other Cryx stuff. They don't ignore free strikes, nor do they have reach however. You can kind of tie them up with buffed Gators, and often you will have no choice in doing so because they will roll tough 6 times in a row. Try to avoid getting charged as much as you can - knowing your fundamental movement rules and melee ranges pays off here. They are also prone to just running into melee with your Gators, reducing their ARM by 2 so they can die to whatever else Cryx has on the board. They also will totally bend you over the table with Goreshade2 if you didn't stock up on Witch Doctors.
Tartarus must die. So must Gorman. If you can trade pretty much any single non-warlock model for these (including a Wrastler), it is probably a good trade. This makes me very sad but it is the reality of things.
Satyxis are living. YAY. This means you can hit them pretty reliably. Raiders will usually get the charge on you though, so focus on positioning for an effective countercharge AND avoid getting jammed up by them. Cryx can be pretty good at scenario play, I hear.
Blood Witches aren't usually something to worry about too much (besides the UA), though they DO have magic weapons... P+S 12 free strikes will probably kill ghost Gatormans.
Cryx has some of the best upkeep removal in the Blood Hag and the Withershadow Combine. This can suck for Iron Flesh and Death Pact. It is very satisfying to revive a Gatorman and then charge them with Maelok's feat though (if you hit those straight 7s... 14/16 with Stealth and Undead is totally fair game for support models with long-range nukes).
Mechanithralls hit at P+S 15 and each cost 25% of a Gatorman. They are "only" MAT 5 though, so without a buff/debuff they might miss you. But if they hit, you're probably dead. They also have Necrosurgeons. These are a high priority target who just happened to have Sac Pawn so are hard to shoot (you guessed it, Maelok's feat + needing straight 7s to hit support models).
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders are pretty terrifying due to our lack of magical weapons. Their DEF of 13 is just high enough to be annoying to FURY/MAT 6 warlocks. Essentially, these more or less go whereever they want and will always get their attacks before you can deal with them. Sucks to be a Minion.
Deathjack - Swamp Pits / ignore him / throw him around / cup your nuts and charge him with everything you have left. Or if you're playing Rask, a Posse with Fury should do it.
Basically, heaps of infantry that doesn't have too hard a time at killing your infantry/casters/anything at lower cost.
Terminus
Terminus is stupid to the point where I feel I should make a special section for him. He is basically the epitome of rock/paper/scissors in Warmahordes. Do you have enough damage to kill my DEF 14/ARM 24+ caster? If not, you are not going to have a fun time. There are basically three aspects to him that make him suck for Gators:
1) Gigantic "FU" Tough aura
We have nothing to deal with Tough
outside Crit Consume on Barnabas. So if the Cryx player keeps rolling
5s, you're not killing anything no matter what you do or how many lambs
you sacrifice. Much fun. Such games design. Wow.
2) ARM camp + Sac Pawn
As you may know, Gators of the past had
problems with ARM greater than 19. This is because the highest P+S in
the faction is 17 on the Wrastler. As a result, Gators would have almost
insta-lost any 1 zone scenario against lists with Gargossals.
In
response to this, Gators got Rask. Rask has Fury and the ability to
remove upkeeps and camped focus at ranged. Rask is pretty amazing. But
even Rask cannot shoot Terminus' focus off because he has a neat ability
called Sac Pawn [pretty much anything in my list, bitches!].
This ability more or less means Terminus can camp at ARM 22+ or so and
tell your Posse and heavies to suck his dust pipe, even if you play Rask
(which you probably shouldn't, for reasons described below).
Thankfully
we have Croctors who make things Undead and more or less deny him a
feat. This is sweet because it makes Cryx players complain about Undead.
I assure you that the limp-wrist is just for show. This dude
will bitchslap the scales right off your back. Source.
3) Flight + hits like a truck
Not only does he camp ARM like a
boss, but he will bitchslap you to death from a long ways away since he
is effectively MAT 9, POW 18/16 with Malediction up. Oh, he also a POW14
SP10. You know, for lolz.
I don't have any tips other than "take Thrullgs, keep scenarios in mind and play much better than your opponent".
So the holiday period is over and I am back, about as neutral about the game of Warmachine as one can be. I think I managed to get in one game over the holidays, Barnabas vs an Arkadius list that resulted in a reasonably close game in which I manage to come out the victor thanks to favourable dice and no thanks to a Slaughterhouser making 5 tough saves in a row to deny me control points and making things hard for me (I never did manage to kill him and he lived to the end).
This game, specifically effective use of Arkadius' feat, brought to mind a frequent "request" I hear on behalf of Minion players to fill a serious design gap in the Pacts: fury management. I don't really agree that this is a design gap. I argue that this would make little difference to our competitive power, because our warbeasts are pretty crappy so being able to manage fury better wouldn't really change things all that much - Gators would take the same amount
WHAT IS FURY MANAGEMENT
Fury management is a term used to refer to models, abilities or spells that can directly or indirectly add or remove fury from friendly warbeasts.
Examples of this include Paingiver Beast Handlers' Condition ability, Kaya1's Soothing Song spell, or the Comfort Food ability on Troll Whelps.
All Hordes armies have fury management built into their warlock's fury leeching ability and fury stat. Warlocks with a low fury stat of 5 can "manage" fury on warbeasts less effectively than warlocks with a higher fury stat of 7 or 8. Looking at that stat alone, one can conclude that warlocks with a higher fury stat can run more warbeasts safely (where safely means less chance of frenzy) because they can leech off more fury than those with a lower stat, thereby leaving less fury on your warbeasts.
Nasum fits everywhere.
WHAT FURY MANAGEMENT ACTUALLY DOES
What fury management does is allow you to run more warbeasts safely, where "safely" is used to mean "lower chance of frenzy".
That's about it. If you have good fury management, you can run more beasts, and beasts can run hotter than they would otherwise, either by generating more attacks, running more models first turn, casting support animi, etc. It provides a higher artificial fury cap for your list.
It's a bit like a reverse of 'focus multiplication', a term used for spells in Warmachine like Terminal Velocity, Guided Fire or Full Throttle where the effect is relatively greater the more models make use of them. For example, spending 3 focus to cast Full Throttle in Khador is efficient if you intend to charge with a jack and make at least 3 attacks with either jacks or warcaster. However, if you have 3 Juggernauts in your list with one focus each for additional attacks, then you are getting 3 charges and 9 to-hit boosts (effectively 9 focus), making that 3 focus expenditure very efficient.
Fury management is like focus multiplication in the sense that it allows you to get more out of your points investment in warnouns by making better use of the resource, in the Hordes case that means being able to do more things with more beasts (go to your fury cap) without the downside (frenzy risk).
WHY FURY MANAGEMENT WOULDN'T REALLY CHANGE ANYTHING FOR GATORMANS
The short answer is beasts in Blindwater are only taken to generate fury, provide animi, and provide high P+S numbers. If Gatorman Posse could do those things, then you probably wouldn't see beasts at all, because Gatormans are freaking sweet. So unless the meta changes to a ridiculous number of 20+ ARM targets in each list, you will only want a moderate number of Gator warbeasts in any given list.
The long answer is that our beasts aren't really that good. We don't have beasts that we actually want to take many of,
except perhaps the Bull Snapper - which, while quite capable for a 3pt
beast, doesn't really deliver the volume or quality of attacks required
to kill things and doesn't have a lot of health. Coincidentally, this is also the only Minion warbeast
with any fury management via the Torpor rule that removes a fury from it
and ends its activation immediately after destroying a living model,
a.k.a. "free boost". Bull Snapper - one of the best designed models in the game.
Spitters
are the only heavy of which you might want three in a specific type of
list, but even then you're probably only boosting hit rolls and a few
direct damage hits. Since the AoE causes Corrosion, you don't usually
end up boosting the blast damage rolls when fury is a concern. Fury
management would basically allow you to boost all the blast damage rolls
in exchange for a couple of points. Worth it? I wouldn't say so in the
majority of situations.
Wrastlers can have a good and
unpredictable threat with their animus but don't hit hard enough to be a
super serious threat in themselves, and also lack reach or movement
shtick (you can give them reach with Elasticity, but then you lose a lot
of flexibility in making a Rise Missile happen). Dual Wrastler lists can do some cool stuff, but again I think this is something that gets taken due to lack of options, not because it's really THAT sweet.
Swamp Horrors could also be taken in multiples as they hit hard-ish and have lots of reach initials so can deal with multiple targets and heavy targets. Unfortunately they are squishy as shit in melee and die to charging mechaniks.
Boneswarms are just crap at everything.
In terms of specific battlegroup-wide buffs, we have Warpath. And
Admonition and Flesh Eater at a stretch, I guess. Everything else
probably gets more out of it when used in conjunction with Gatorman
Posse. That isn't much of an incentive to bring warbeasts, let me tell
you.
Let's have a look at other factions for comparison's sake:
Legion and Skorne have the best fury
management in the game in Paingivers, Sheperds and Forsaken. This
allows them to run lots of beasts, specifically heavies. This is fine by
them because they have access to amazing heavies that they want to take a lot of by
choice, rather than by necessity.
On the Legion side of things,
you have Archangels, Ravagores, Scytheans, and Typhon. These beasts are
quite versatile in that they can not only do sizable melee damage, but
are also versatile enough to handle infantry well with abilities like
Overtake, Bloodbath, Slaughterhouse (takedown), Scather/AoEs and sprays. Sweet animi, sweet stats, sweet abilities, sweet weapons.
Skorne has the likes of Gladiators, Bronzebacks,
Tiberion and Molik Karn, along with excellent lights like Brutes, Drakes and Kreas. Similar to Legion, these beasts have great
secondary use and sweet animi (or are just really tanky as shit). The Holy Skorne Trinity of Molik, Gladiator and Bronzeback can deal with almost anything, from troop masses to high ARM to rough terrain to Crippling Grasp (ok, maybe not that last one).
Not
only are the beasts really sweet, but a good number of their casters
support the beast heavy playstyle through feats, abilities and spells, making beasts even more attractive. Have a look at Vayls, Makedas, Saeryn, Lylyth2, Hexeris2, Morghoul1, Rasheth, Naaresh, Xerxis, etc..
Lylyth2 is a great example - Fury 5, no real fury management to speak of and all about increasing attacks. With a few Shepards and Forsaken however, those 3 Ravagore/2 Angel lists are destroying everything on feat turn and then acting totally cool the next rather than flipping out and killing each other. Morghoul1 is in the same boat - with 5 fury and a tendency to die, without Paingivers he would really really suck.
Circle
and Trolls don't have as much in terms of general fury management.
Shifting Stones can remove fury from friendly warbeasts within 1" during
your control phase (an ability that was not present in Mk1 but was
thrown in last minute in the field test to appease Circle players who
felt heavily crippled by the lack of fury management - lolz). This fury
management is not that great for Circle because of its highly limited
range, and as we all know Circle likes mobility, especially on their
Warpwolf Stalkers which you see in every list. Besides, these Stalkers
are usually going to be Primaled so will frenzy next turn anyway,
resulting in effective fury management. They do however have a few warlocks that do very well running warbeast heavy (Kromac, Kaya, Baldur2 tier) due to great support buffs, built-in fury control, construct warbeasts that don't frenzy and models like the Druid Wilder that get animi out.
Trolls have
Whelps, who I don't usually see on the table very often despite what I
consider to be pretty strong rules (2pts for 5 solos, who can either be a
MAT/RAT debuff, alternate source of beast healing or fury management -
seems good). I attribute this to Troll beasts being a heavily synergistic faction, and as a result their beasts are bad to average for their
high costs (outside of Mulg), so they always try to max on troops and the
beasts are primarily taken for animi/support and to be a "cog in the fleshy blue machine", besides Bombers and maybe
Earthborns.
They also have a couple of fury and frenzy management abilities on some casters, like Calandra and Hoarluks.
The main point is that fury
management is only a really useful tool IF you have really good
warbeasts of which you want to take more than your warlock can handle by
itself. Minions do not have this issue because our warbeasts are good
at best and mediocre at other times.
WHY IT COULD CHANGE THINGS FOR PIGS, BUT PROBABLY WON'T
On the flipside of BG buffs, you have Farrow, whose casters are shitting out amazing battlegroup buffs with alarming consistency:
Carver: Mobility, Batten Down the Hatches, [Hog Heaven feat is arguably just as useful for melee heavies as it is for troops]
S&D: Watcher, Killing Ground, Goad, Pack Hunters, [Vision is also best for battlegroup]
Midas: Butchery, Pet Cemetary feat
To make up for these super sweet buffs however, they have some terrible beasts. Like, really bad beasts that only manage to do anything sweet because their casters are so baller.
War Hogs, Road Hogs and Gun Boars all share pretty crappy stats (the Gun Boar is quite tanky for a light though) and relatively high points costs, and only become respectable in any degree when they combine their "pain activated" abilities with their warlocks' super sweet BG buffs.
The only beast that is actually pretty sweet for its cost is the 2pt Razor Boar, perspectives of which will forever be cursed by its unexplainedly 100% overcosted Friendly Faction animus*. However a respectable tanky 2pt solo with boosts that you can spam and benefits from your sweet BG buffs is hard to overlook.
Pigs have access to 4 infantry units (all FA:2, 3 in Thornfall):
Brigands - good with Carver due to fearless + CRA (a big deal), not good with anyone else.
Slaughterhousers - all around excellent melee unit. Their special rules (Take Down, Finisher, Reach, Powerful Charge, Fearless, Tough) make up for their mediocre victim stats in spades. If Minions were one faction rather than two, I would definitely take a unit of these in many lists.
Bone Grinders - good support unit and very cheap. Craptacular damage output though, despite having a nice RNG 12 POW 11 nuke.
Razorback Crew - one of the better light artillery pieces in the game, but still light artillery.
The average 50pts Pig list will contain 1 unit of Bone Grinders and 1-2 units of Slaughterhousers. The rest will be filled with beasts, usually 2-3 War Hogs, 0-2 Road Hogs, 4-6 Razorboars and 0-2 Gun Boars, along with Saxon Orrik and other solos not as good as Saxon Orrik.
This is partially out of necessity (not too many options available), and partially because of the aforementioned amazing battlegroup buffs. War Hogs tend to be the most common in my experience (I almost always see 2 at 50pts) and it is pretty bad as far as melee heavies go.
With that in mind, would fury management make a big difference to Pigs? I sure as hell don't know. Probably. They are taking list made up primarily of beasts anyway, so I can't see how being able to manage fury better would be a negative. It would make spamming the Razor Boar animus easier for one, which could be neat.
I'm not convinced the lack of fury management in Pigs is a design gap though. I always thought the best approach to fury management in Pigs should be frenzy. Give Pig players every incentive to just go crazy all the time. It would be both fun and unique, require pretty good decision making skills and familiarity with the frenzy rules to maximize efficiency and not get stuck in the regimented "order of activation uber alles" playstyle of Skorne and PoM.
HOW TO MANAGE FURY WITHOUT SPENDING POINTS
One of the nice things, in my opinion, about Gators is the
lack of fury management forces you to get good at the fundamentals of
the game. You can't go balls out with fury on any given turn, and then
cover your ass by spending points on fury control models. I also feel in building lists that the balance between infantry and warnouns is exactly where I would like it to be for Warmachine and other Hordes factions - I need to take a certain number of warbeasts in order to generate fury for my warlock AND also provide a decent number of transfer for safety. That usually ends up being 2 heavies and a light at all points levels, a proposition that makes Khador soil itself with envy.
If I take less, I make my caster more vulnerable by having lower fury generation (meaning I might have to cut for fury regularly) and by reducing the number of potential transfer targets (not only will there be less on the table, but the ones that are there are more likely to be fill up on fury).
If I take more, I use my points less efficiently than I could otherwise (on infantry or solos) and will probably have more fury than I can handle if I want my beasts to function effectively.
Here are some pro-tips (or at least, "tips"):
The fundamentals of fury management are planning and estimating.
The most important factor in planning is to know what your caster will be doing that turn, specifically how much fury you want to spend and how much you want to hold onto. The difference between there two is ideally how much you want to have on the table at the end of your opponent's next turn.
If you expect a beast do die next turn, such as a beast used in a Rask Missile or Rise Missile, then max it out on fury and don't reave it if it'll bring you over cap. Better to cut for 1 or 2 damage to get the missing fury (if needed) than have a warbeast frenzy and do nothing on top of killing your own stuff. If it somehow lives, then you're likely to get a free fully boosted attack out of it when it frenzies.
Very rarely will I aim to have more fury on that table than what my caster can handle. However, if I am able to go completely overboard and put your opponent in a really really bad position by maxing out your beasts, then it's probably worth the risk. Better to risk frenzy to kill an enemy heavy than to have it kill you next turn.
Fury management also takes place during your turn, since that's when transfers are likely to take place. You can think of a transfer as costing you one point of life, since that's what it cost to make up a lost fury. If you reasonably expect your caster to take a few hits, having an extra fury or two on your beasts can save you cutting yourself next turn. In my experience however, if you do a good job at protecting your caster, most experienced players won't even try to kill it without some top-level assassination tech.
The wonders of nature
ACTUAL DESIGN GAPS
Fury management is a non-issue in my opinion. I think the actual design gaps for Gators are:
Lack of anti-tough - the increasing prominence of tough (no thanks to the Witch Doctor!) is one of the bigger contemporary design issues in the game in my opinion. There has also been quite a bit of discussion about it on the forums in the last few months, with a lot of arguments thrown both ways. My stance on the matter is that Tough as a rule, namely a single 5+ unmodifiable dice roll to survive (almost) any attack, is fine in itself. It adds a lot of character and a bit of depth into the game strategy. The issue I have with it is that it is everywhere, with the Piper, Kovnik Joe, huge FU caster auras like Terminus and Irusk and Tough is no longer a special unique rule with character but is turning things into 40k Roll to Hit -> Roll to Damage -> Roll to Save.
And the worse part of it is that Gators cannot do ANYTHING about it at all, except getting that crit consume on Barnabas' bite (I will almost always roll to hit on KD tough models to get that crit). So either fix the game (lots of work), or give me easily accessible anti-tough tech. Shit, I'd take Slaughterhousers. Thanks.
Lack of magical attacks - outside caster melee and ranged weapons, and some magical nukes we have the following things: Thrullg's 3 melee weapons, Pendrake's sword, Croctor's Sacral Blade and Sacrificial Strike. Not to best to deal with those rogue incorporeal zone contest solos, or Cryx ghost infantry BS.
Low number of ranged attacks - less of an issue for me than in the past, but I've fortunately managed to avoid hard control casters like Haley, Denny, Old Witch, etc. If I played those more often I would most likely rage about not being able to play a lot of the time. Obviously Gators, like Cryx or Skorne, are supposed to be heavily melee oriented, but even Cryx has some of the offensive spell toolboxes in the game, and Skorne has a decent number of ranged options and/or magical attacks for those bad matchups too so they aren't 100% boned (just 85%).
Dealing with armor without Rask - not a huge deal, but having +1 POW on Barnabas' cleaver and Maelok's Bite would be a big help. Having to cup my balls and hold my breath when I charge into a slightly damaged heavy might be exciting if I succeed, but it'd be nice to push the odds a little bit in my favour and maybe leave me with 1 fury at the end of my attacks.
The middle two issues could be fixed by making Specialists more baseline. If I see a shitload of magic users and Blackbanes on the other side, I can sub in a Thrullg. If I come up against some hardcore control BS, I can put in 2 Croak Hunters and some Bog Trogs to have something to do on enemy feat turns. It's probably still not enough to patch up those weaknesses, but at least we have something there.
On the flipside, I can't do anything about tough, and will always have to play Rask against heavy armor unless there is an errata on Barnabas/Maelok/Calaban, or some stuff gets released that specifically does not work for Rask (like a warbeast affinity).
Well, that was ranty. Maybe I'll have another equally ranty post in the near future, probably also about how tough spam is retarded. Or whatever the flavour of the month is. Until then, relish being the underdog!
* Seriously, wtf. It can ONLY work on Pig warbeasts and it's not that strong an ability in itself. I'd understand if it could work on things that weren't warbeasts since Rorsch could cast it on almost anything in the game. The only explanations I can come up with are 'DC hates Pigs' or 'future fury management incoming'.
